The True Decepticon Leader Returns

where is he???

Okay, I didn't really know that the Tank could actually fly... LOL


Megs killed Prime, 1-0

why am i a star dancing with ultra and james in teans sig?

The Darkfather wrote:

Okay, I didn't really know that the Tank could actually fly... LOL


Megs killed Prime, 1-0

Megs got beat by a teenage boy. (Any points for Megs are now null and void.)
Prime had to get stabbed through the chest and he wasn't completely dead after that either.
And the flying thing reminded me of G1 where they can just fly no matter what they are.
Prime also killed Megatron's master, 1-0, and a decent chunk of Megs army, 2-0, and he was a scientist on Cybertron while Megs was the military commander, 3-0.
Oh and he's a Prime, 4-0.

Megs was hit by a 'lucky shot' from a scared-out-of-his-pants teenage boy who was the primary target (and not Prime, who is not that important in the first place). Witwicky didn't actually trigger the Allspark to kill Megatron on his own volition (which makes it still 1-0 for Megs, with the argument of Sam nullifying it a non sequitur since the point was between Prime and Megatron).

Prime was stabbed -- and shot with THE Fusion cannon, which would normally give a heart-shot creature a minute or so of consciousness (see the case of Neda, the girl who was shot in Iran). After the lame "Run, Sam... run" dialogue, Prime died a loser's death (because he left the job of protecting Sam unfinished).

Yes, ALL Decepticons can fly in G1 except, I think... Ravage (who turns into a casette which homes back to soundwave anyway, so he doesn't count).

Prime killed Megatron's master --(with help from Jetfire --- it's called handicap mode, where you let weaker participants get perks so they can at least win)
On the grounds that it's a handicap (for the sake of movie cliches where good wins over evil), it's Megs 1, Prime 0

and a decent chunk of Megs army -- Demolishor and Blackout. Just 2 cons aside from the Fallen, after the 'fusion' setup. The rest of the Autobots took care of the rest with a lot of human support. I have to reiterate, A LOT of human support (N.E.S.T. and international military assistance). Megs killed Prime, a ton of humans and Sam Witwicky (before he was 'mystically' resurrected by the Matrix of Leadership, which is somewhat a questionable circumstance with respect to the original TF mythology).
On terms of body count then and quality of murders, it's now Megs 2, Prime 0.

he was a scientist on Cybertron while Megs was the military commander -- Clearly, Megs gets more military action and experience. On the other hand (albeit, au contraire) Optimus Prime used to be a peaceful and defenseless dock worker named Orion Pax (far from being a scientist, really) before he was reassembled by Alpha Trion.
Hence, on military experience (per argument), Megs 3, Prime 0

He's a Prime -- The 'Prime' status is a mere social status, similar to a country having a President and an empire having an Emperor. Thus, there is no feasible argument derivable from it, with respect to the primary argument.

Hence, it's still Megs 3, Prime 0

Ummm....WTF.

The Darkfather wrote:

Megs was hit by a 'lucky shot' from a scared-out-of-his-pants teenage boy who was the primary target (and not Prime, who is not that important in the first place). Witwicky didn't actually trigger the Allspark to kill Megatron on his own volition (which makes it still 1-0 for Megs, with the argument of Sam nullifying it a non sequitur since the point was between Prime and Megatron).

Prime was stabbed -- and shot with THE Fusion cannon, which would normally give a heart-shot creature a minute or so of consciousness (see the case of Neda, the girl who was shot in Iran). After the lame "Run, Sam... run" dialogue, Prime died a loser's death (because he left the job of protecting Sam unfinished).

Yes, ALL Decepticons can fly in G1 except, I think... Ravage (who turns into a casette which homes back to soundwave anyway, so he doesn't count).

Prime killed Megatron's master --(with help from Jetfire --- it's called handicap mode, where you let weaker participants get perks so they can at least win)
On the grounds that it's a handicap (for the sake of movie cliches where good wins over evil), it's Megs 1, Prime 0

and a decent chunk of Megs army -- Demolishor and Blackout. Just 2 cons aside from the Fallen, after the 'fusion' setup. The rest of the Autobots took care of the rest with a lot of human support. I have to reiterate, A LOT of human support (N.E.S.T. and international military assistance). Megs killed Prime, a ton of humans and Sam Witwicky (before he was 'mystically' resurrected by the Matrix of Leadership, which is somewhat a questionable circumstance with respect to the original TF mythology).
On terms of body count then and quality of murders, it's now Megs 2, Prime 0.

he was a scientist on Cybertron while Megs was the military commander -- Clearly, Megs gets more military action and experience. On the other hand (albeit, au contraire) Optimus Prime used to be a peaceful and defenseless dock worker named Orion Pax (far from being a scientist, really) before he was reassembled by Alpha Trion.
Hence, on military experience (per argument), Megs 3, Prime 0

He's a Prime -- The 'Prime' status is a mere social status, similar to a country having a President and an empire having an Emperor. Thus, there is no feasible argument derivable from it, with respect to the primary argument.

Hence, it's still Megs 3, Prime 0

Megs kills Jazz and Prime (only two Autobots) and a ton of humans (seems one sided to me aka handicap). And being killed by a scared-**** teenager who WAS the primary target by a lucky shot, is still being killed by a teenage human, who he easily could've shot. So in comparison Megs to out a target who was smaller than his leg and someone who was busy protecting Witwicky. You also have to include how many decepticons prime injured. Both starscream and Megatron were hurt badly by Prime in the end (you handicap is bullcrap because with Megs "superior experience" and "fusion cannon" he should have been able to deal with a slightly more powerful prime.) So Prime gets a point.

And as for the dock worker and all I was referring to the movie continuity and he is a scientist yet he still can kill numerous decepticons WITHOUT military experience. I think he deserves that point, not Megs who, by all parameters, should have crushed all the Autobots by now with his military experience AND numerous military soldiers. Prime has only one soldier from the Cybertron military and that is Ironhide.

Killing Demolisher was no easy task either, that'd be like Megatron killing Omega Supreme.
And it wasn't blackout, it was Grindor (not sure if that is the right spelling). Megatron's HEAVY WEAPONS specialist. That's like Megatron killing an Ironhide with bigger guns (Ironhide is a normal weapons specialist). Prime gets the point

The 'Prime' status in the movie is more than a mere social status. Take the quote "Only a Prime can defeat the Fallen." That's like saying "Only the president can kill Osama." Doesn't work out. Point for prime.

And the whole "mystically revived" thing shouldn't apply because Megatron was revived by a tiny shard of a cube that gave a planet life (what isn't mystical about that?). Also the Matrix of leadership held the power of the original 12 primes, if it doesn't have the power to revive one, then it shouldn't be there.

And the "died a loser's death (because he left the job of protecting Sam unfinished)." Can be interpreted as so. But in the original G1 movie prime died to save Hot Rod, who really wasn't that important. As Megatron said "You protect the weak." That's exactly what he does. And last I checked Witwicky survived that little encounter. So prime DIDN'T fail as you say. Point for prime.

So it comes out to be

Prime: 5
Megs: 1

Quote :

Megs kills Jazz and Prime (only two Autobots) and a ton of humans (seems one sided to me aka handicap). And being killed by a scared-**** teenager who WAS the primary target by a lucky shot, is still being killed by a teenage human, who he easily could've shot. So in comparison Megs to out a target who was smaller than his leg and someone who was busy protecting Witwicky. You also have to include how many decepticons prime injured. Both starscream and Megatron were hurt badly by Prime in the end (you handicap is bullcrap because with Megs "superior experience" and "fusion cannon" he should have been able to deal with a slightly more powerful prime.) So Prime gets a point.

But do not forget that Prime was holding Megatron off in order to protect Sam and the cube. From what I saw, Megatron had his focus on Prime for almost the entire scene until he beat Prime into submission. When the two took out their ranged weapons, Prime only blew pieces (dust heheh...) of armor off of Megatron while Megatron sent Prime flying into the side of a building. Two or three more shots from that blast could have killed him. Prime also was focused on Megatron but was beaten. After Megatron was done with Prime, he went on with Sam but became reckless and was killed by the boy. Compared to his second time of protecting Sam, Prime was sloppy.

Point for Megatron: 1:0

Quote :

And as for the dock worker and all I was referring to the movie continuity and he is a scientist yet he still can kill numerous decepticons WITHOUT military experience. I think he deserves that point, not Megs who, by all parameters, should have crushed all the Autobots by now with his military experience AND numerous military soldiers. Prime has only one soldier from the Cybertron military and that is Ironhide.

Prime had many soldiers in his rank, regardless of their previous occupation. Fight in a war long enough and you're a veteran. But heroes always had the will to fight. Megatron only thought of military and strategic forms of fighting, but could probably give up if he takes enough damage (he flew away after a barrage of shrapnel from human tanks) whereas Prime would risk his life for those he protects.

Point for Prime: 1:1

Quote :

Killing Demolisher was no easy task either, that'd be like Megatron killing Omega Supreme.
And it wasn't blackout, it was Grindor (not sure if that is the right spelling). Megatron's HEAVY WEAPONS specialist. That's like Megatron killing an Ironhide with bigger guns (Ironhide is a normal weapons specialist). Prime gets the point

You can't compare a voyager to a fortress. Demolisher was easily taken down by Prime. The former was no match for a leader class cybertronian. Did Demolisher last even two minutes with Prime? Omega Supreme has yet to debut in the movies but obviously Megatron would have a really hard time to take him down. Not the best comparison. As for Grindor, he's a military vehicle and obviously had more firepower than Ironhide. Had Ironhide been a military class vehicle then he'd be a heavy weapon's specialist. Although, I'm not sure where the heavy weapons part came from. But once again, a voyager is not match for a leader.

Point for Megatron: 2:1

Quote :

The 'Prime' status in the movie is more than a mere social status. Take the quote "Only a Prime can defeat the Fallen." That's like saying "Only the president can kill Osama." Doesn't work out. Point for prime.

No argument there.

Point for Prime: 2:2

Quote :

And the whole "mystically revived" thing shouldn't apply because Megatron was revived by a tiny shard of a cube that gave a planet life (what isn't mystical about that?). Also the Matrix of leadership held the power of the original 12 primes, if it doesn't have the power to revive one, then it shouldn't be there.

Not excatly sure how this involves the two leaders. No points for either.

Quote :

And the "died a loser's death (because he left the job of protecting Sam unfinished)." Can be interpreted as so. But in the original G1 movie prime died to save Hot Rod, who really wasn't that important. As Megatron said "You protect the weak." That's exactly what he does. And last I checked Witwicky survived that little encounter. So prime DIDN'T fail as you say. Point for prime.

Prime protected Hot Rod because he knew of his importance and (obviously) because he was a fellow Autobot. Hot Rod would later become Rodimus Prime with Optimus himself saying, "Arise, Rodimus Prime". Optimus failed and succeeded in Sam's protection. He died to protect Sam but Sam died anyway. Megatron succeeded in killing Sam but was revived by the Primes. Even though the human survived he still died.

Prime and Megatron get a point for that: 3:3

They're tied.

Damn you and your logic.

you should all stick to 2 sentence posts

I don't think we should.

Dammit!!

i think you all have too much time on your hands....

Lunar's point is sound, I have to reckon. Amazing how deep a discussion goes when different people of the same interest banter about it.


Anyway, I would have to comment though, on the 'Prime' issue:

The 'Prime' status in the movie is more than a mere social status. Take the quote "Only a Prime can defeat the Fallen." That's like saying "Only the president can kill Osama." Doesn't work out. Point for prime.

In TF mythology, the Prime is the bearer of the Matrix of Leadership. A symbol that connotes you are the leader, ruler, or whatever you call yourself in your community as its head.

Much like the relationships among Arthur and Excalibur, Aragorn son of Arathorn and Narsil, or even Captain Caveman and his creepy shaking magic club.

Decepticons don't have a Matrix of Leadership because they don't need one.

There exists a Nemesis Prime, however, but he is technically neither Autobot nor Decepticon, as he decimates both sides. That one is called Prime simply because he looks like Optimus.

Again, the Prime title is simply a title, given some plot twist by Michael Bay.

In the transformers: defiance comic, it explains Mr. Bay's version of Prime.

And it is as I stated earlier. When Optimus discovered that he was a prime, all the Autobots that knew of the discovery completely changed around him. Like he was something of legend.

And in the movie, Jetfire finds it an amazing and awesome sight to see a prime and he was alive thousands of years ago.

You're trying to apply the concepts of TF mythology (which can be very inaccurate because of various series) to a movie that has it's own separate mythology.

I dunno...I'm a bit confused about it too.

It could be some sort of military rank or something. Perhaps 'Prime' is like the ultimate status of a soldier's experience. Maybe it's just the rank of one's experience. Prime is ungodly skillled so that makes sense. Also, Prime means 'of the greatest importance or the highest rank', or 'the best stage of something.'

That would mean that he is a commander or general. Seeing how much damage he deals, it's no wonder why he is seen as the greatest of all Autobots.

So, I believe that it's a rank to signify one's strength.

Quote :

At the Burthov Launch Site, the excavation team test out a booster separation system, which is successful. Ratchet tells Optimus that the team were analyzing the fragments that they found, while Optimus tells him about the artifact's mysterious restoration. The conversation is interrupted by Arcee, who discovered a match with a symbol found on one of the fragments. When Optimus asks which one, Arcee points to his head, which has the same symbol carved on it. Ratchet says that this proves that the Dynasty of Primes does exist, and that Optimus is somehow connected. Optimus wonders: is he a Prime?

Quote :

Eons ago, the All Spark created thirteen beings, the first Cybertronians. They soon realized that the All Spark's power, though vast, was not infinite, and required the energy of stars to be replenished. Once a nearby star went nova, the All Spark created a worker race, the Transformers, who would assist the Dynasty in replenishing the All Spark. However, one of the thirteen, later known as the Fallen, betrayed his brothers and tried to steal the power of the All Spark for himself. However, once he had destroyed his brothers sarcophagi, he realized that they were able to still act, trapping him in his own Sarcophagus. Knowledge of the thirteen faded, and the Dynasty of Primes became little more than a myth. Defiance issue 4

Thousands of years later, the Science Division discovered the Fallen's sarcophagus and the remains of the other Twelve's sarcophagi. As the Fallen influenced Lord High Protector Megatron, the members of the Science Division studied the remains of the other relics and discovered the symbol of the Primes. This was the first proof that they had found of the Dynasty, and what's more, the symbol was etched on the head of the Science Division's leader, who was soon dubbed Optimus Prime by his fellow scientists. After the Autobots refused to follow Megatron's Decepticons, the term Prime came to denote Optimus as leader of the Autobots.

Well, that settles that question.

Nice find, Steel.

And in reference to the Matrix mumbo-jumbo here is an image from the G1 Marvel comic.

Notice the second panel.



And this newer comic (not sure for which series).
The first panel.



So it isn't to far-fetched that if the Matrix can create life it can definetly revive Optimus.

The Darkfather wrote:

Megs was hit by a 'lucky shot' from a scared-out-of-his-pants teenage boy who was the primary target (and not Prime, who is not that important in the first place). Witwicky didn't actually trigger the Allspark to kill Megatron on his own volition (which makes it still 1-0 for Megs, with the argument of Sam nullifying it a non sequitur since the point was between Prime and Megatron).

Prime was stabbed -- and shot with THE Fusion cannon, which would normally give a heart-shot creature a minute or so of consciousness (see the case of Neda, the girl who was shot in Iran). After the lame "Run, Sam... run" dialogue, Prime died a loser's death (because he left the job of protecting Sam unfinished).

Yes, ALL Decepticons can fly in G1 except, I think... Ravage (who turns into a casette which homes back to soundwave anyway, so he doesn't count).

Prime killed Megatron's master --(with help from Jetfire --- it's called handicap mode, where you let weaker participants get perks so they can at least win)
On the grounds that it's a handicap (for the sake of movie cliches where good wins over evil), it's Megs 1, Prime 0

and a decent chunk of Megs army -- Demolishor and Blackout. Just 2 cons aside from the Fallen, after the 'fusion' setup. The rest of the Autobots took care of the rest with a lot of human support. I have to reiterate, A LOT of human support (N.E.S.T. and international military assistance). Megs killed Prime, a ton of humans and Sam Witwicky (before he was 'mystically' resurrected by the Matrix of Leadership, which is somewhat a questionable circumstance with respect to the original TF mythology).
On terms of body count then and quality of murders, it's now Megs 2, Prime 0.

he was a scientist on Cybertron while Megs was the military commander -- Clearly, Megs gets more military action and experience. On the other hand (albeit, au contraire) Optimus Prime used to be a peaceful and defenseless dock worker named Orion Pax (far from being a scientist, really) before he was reassembled by Alpha Trion.
Hence, on military experience (per argument), Megs 3, Prime 0

He's a Prime -- The 'Prime' status is a mere social status, similar to a country having a President and an empire having an Emperor. Thus, there is no feasible argument derivable from it, with respect to the primary argument.

Hence, it's still Megs 3, Prime 0

theres a couple things wrong with that sentiment,

1 optimus wasnt even at full power when killing the fallen, jetfires parts just made him fly, plus the first fight, even if half the time the decepts were chasing sam, he still killed blackout, broke megatrons leg, tore off starscreams arm and beat him down with it


the fallen is one powerful mother of destruction,

so id say its pretty even

plus nest was made up of us, marines, brittish s.a.s, and other top of the line soldiers from across the world

plus they had magazines filled with INCENDIARY ROUNDS

I LIKE PIE!!!!!!!!!!!!


see aren't i a good comic relief

again....way too much time on you guys hands lol.

I really didn't look most of this up.
So far it has only been the matrix comics.